home register FAQ memberlist calendar

Go Back   Turbobricks Forums > Mechanical > performance & modifications

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-28-2020, 03:15 PM   #1
Awaffa2003
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Northern IL
Default Back to dreaming again *sequential turbos*

So I think it's back to the drawing board with my 83 wagon scrapped, my 93 wagon waiting on a thermostat and my 80 as my DD for now.

Shooting around some ideas, I was thinking, how feasible would it be to twin, compound, sequential, what have you...turbo a 16v b230? Little one in the engine bay to make boost at lower rpms, rear or remote mounted turbo out back where the muffler goes like you see the GM guys doing.

Methinks the lag of the big turbo would be offset by the snappier small boi up front were they both sized appropriately. That's the main complaint to remote turbos, no?

Thoughts?
Awaffa2003 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2020, 03:18 PM   #2
Stiggy Pop
Board Member
 
Stiggy Pop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Granville, MA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Awaffa2003 View Post
Thoughts?
pursue other interests.
__________________
'79 242
943 pickup
Stiggy Pop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2020, 03:39 PM   #3
JW240
All idiot, no savant
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: The Netherlands, Europe
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stiggy Pop View Post
pursue other interests.
+1

I'm willing to bet that a modern Garrett GTX/G/etc or BW EFR turbo will have better spool characteristics, are longer lived, better at everything, than any sensible cobbled sequential twin setup. Those modern turbo's will boost at low-ish rpm and still flow 450-550 hp worth of air, far more than the Volvo RWD chassis handles without some serious attention.
Less is more; the more I see the simpeler the setup I prefer. Not lo-tek, just not more tech just because. The idea that two cheap turbo's can do the same as one 2K$ turbo is alluring but by the time all supporting mods are in place and kinks are worked out, its not such a bargain anymore usually.
__________________
240 | 1991 | 345K Km | B230F+T | Cosworth T3 60/63 | M90 | TrueTrack (parked for a few months)
dd: 940 | 1992 | B230FB
Husaberg FE450 70 degree '12 mx/supermoto swapped


Quote:
Originally Posted by Redwood Chair View Post
Don't forget about properly seasoning it on HF jackstands for a couple years whilst dreaming about big powah 'goals'.
JW240 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2020, 04:39 PM   #4
Harlard
Hurlurd?Harland?Bueller?
 
Harlard's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: PDX
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stiggy Pop View Post
pursue other interests.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JW240 View Post
+1
+2
__________________


Herr Harlard am Erstens

1979 242 DL

Quote:
Originally Posted by t8fanning View Post
My knob has a big chunk of steel on it
Harlard is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2020, 05:13 PM   #5
apachechef
Burnt Sierra Madre
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Fort Joe Smith, Klendathu
Default

+3
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by lummert View Post
Dammit, Lummert.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse8931 View Post
Well keep us updated on how your dumbass plan goes.
apachechef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2020, 06:15 PM   #6
Broke4speed
Board Member
 
Broke4speed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Marionville, Ontario, Canada
Default

The people who consider this sort of thing are the people who have never actually owned/driven a turbo car, IMO. Lag is not the life/death issue it's made out to be, especially if you size your turbo properly.
__________________
1984 244/ AQ140A / M46
Broke4speed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2020, 06:18 PM   #7
JohnMc
PV Abuser
 
JohnMc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: St. Louis
Default

And use a proper CBV/BOV. And use a modern turbo that's made for the purpose (small, enthusiastically driven gas engine, not a big diesel truck motor).

Divided scroll helps, properly sized.

You're going to spend a LOT of time, money, effort building a sequential system that still won't work any better than a proper single turbo.

Hell, Toyota engineers spent all sorts of time trying to make the Supra sequential turbo setup work, and in the end? Most people mod them back to a big single anyhow.

If you're dead set on making it more complicated than it needs to be - look into:
1) Variable geometry turbos - quick spool, then open wide for top end
2) e-spool turbos - lots of electricity needed - but they can spin up for instaspool (if you trigger them in advance, I guess).
__________________
'63 PV Rat Rod
'93 245 16VT Classic #1141
JohnMc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2020, 06:32 PM   #8
cwdodson88
Board Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: The Dalles, Oregon
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMc View Post
And use a proper CBV/BOV. And use a modern turbo that's made for the purpose (small, enthusiastically driven gas engine, not a big diesel truck motor).

Divided scroll helps, properly sized.

You're going to spend a LOT of time, money, effort building a sequential system that still won't work any better than a proper single turbo.

Hell, Toyota engineers spent all sorts of time trying to make the Supra sequential turbo setup work, and in the end? Most people mod them back to a big single anyhow.

If you're dead set on making it more complicated than it needs to be - look into:
1) Variable geometry turbos - quick spool, then open wide for top end
2) e-spool turbos - lots of electricity needed - but they can spin up for instaspool (if you trigger them in advance, I guess).
48v eturbos don’t take long to get spinning.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikep View Post
Build it, break it, build what broke stronger, lather, rinse, repeat.

The Build Thread
SVEA - PUSHROD TURBO!
cwdodson88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2020, 06:49 PM   #9
redblockpowered
cone dodging dilettante
 
redblockpowered's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: In bed, probably
Default

Super easy, everybody around here does it and nobody talks about it because they don't want the manufacturers to find out the secret.
__________________
1993 944 B230FT/M90 thread here: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=345277
2x 1991 245 B230F/M47 (LeMons car, street car)
I sell chips for LH 2.4!
redblockpowered is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2020, 09:59 AM   #10
Awaffa2003
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Northern IL
Default

Foiled yet again.
Awaffa2003 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2020, 10:12 AM   #11
Swedbrick
Board Member
 
Swedbrick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Netherlands, Source of Grolsch
Default

Could be interesting, but know what your in for, my parrallel twin turbo project is still ongoing, but in comparison to how good modern turbo power bands are, it only makes sense if you are looking for a challenge

As a bit of a motivator, found this on a swedish forum;)
__________________
Volvo 745 - Turbo, LH2.4, M90 swap, IPD springs, 25mm/19mm swaybars, 3.54 \w racingdiff lsd, track/daily
---------------------------------
I sell LH2.4 Chips for Europe!
Swedbrick is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2020, 12:06 PM   #12
OttoB
Board Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: E(Seattle!Vancouver! San Francisco!LA!) Helsinski
Default

^All that and a Stromberg.
What we got here is a failure to communicate
OttoB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2020, 12:09 PM   #13
oldschoolvolvo
Board Member
 
oldschoolvolvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Lancaster, PA
Default

yikes that is a busy engine bay
__________________
-Mike
1998 V70 T5
1979 242 DL 16v

|Feedback|
oldschoolvolvo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2020, 12:14 PM   #14
JohnMc
PV Abuser
 
JohnMc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: St. Louis
Default

Any guesses on the HP?

I'm feeling optimistic, I'll say 200.
JohnMc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2020, 12:33 PM   #15
Jack
junkman
 
Jack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: The Ass Cheek Of History
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Awaffa2003 View Post
So I think it's back to the drawing board with my 83 wagon scrapped, my 93 wagon waiting on a thermostat and my 80 as my DD for now.

Shooting around some ideas, I was thinking, how feasible would it be to twin, compound, sequential, what have you...turbo a 16v b230? Little one in the engine bay to make boost at lower rpms, rear or remote mounted turbo out back where the muffler goes like you see the GM guys doing.

Methinks the lag of the big turbo would be offset by the snappier small boi up front were they both sized appropriately. That's the main complaint to remote turbos, no?

Thoughts?
doet
__________________
85 245 | 82 242| 75 245| 69 145 |66 122| 67 220




Quote:
Originally Posted by paul buck View Post
I love you even more Jack.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritishBrick
Don’t bother, I would literally rather throw them away than give you the pleasure. I will never sell to you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuesday View Post
I expect nothing less from an incel like you, Jack.
Jack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2020, 12:34 PM   #16
kyote
Living The Dream
 
kyote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: La Porte TX
Default

Nah fam just put a lil hydrazine in the tank
https://www.dragzine.com/news/flashb...led-hydrazine/
__________________
-78 242 tic, a kyotefab/willettrun joint
-83 245 tic, daily in progress
-14 F150 FX4 3.5 EcoBeast (Wife's)
kyote is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2020, 12:50 PM   #17
OttoB
Board Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: E(Seattle!Vancouver! San Francisco!LA!) Helsinski
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMc View Post
Any guesses on the HP?

I'm feeling optimistic, I'll say 200.
200 hp, 2 second
OttoB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2020, 01:47 PM   #18
Duder
Comes with a free Frogurt
 
Duder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Default

The most common reason that a series turbo system would be necessary is the need for extremely high boost pressure. Maybe you have a small engine with big power goals and the only way to get there is 60+ psi of boost. Or maybe you have a diesel that needs to make thousands of hp for tractor pulling. Or you need to maintain big power up to very high altitude with a small engine - meaning high pressure *ratio* capability even if the manifold boost pressure is more sane (like a 4-cylinder turbo car running Pikes Peak for example).

Either way, it's about building a system that gives you the ability to operate way "off the map" of any single-stage compressor. Two stages with one feeding the other is a series system - not sequential - the term sequential in this context means there is some time-dependent control, can be either series or parallel. You can have series-sequential, parallel-sequential, simple parallel or simple series. With two turbos in series they are not "twins" because one is necessarily much larger than the other. The large turbo is the low-pressure stage and the small one is the high-pressure stage. LP compressor feeds into HP compressor, and HP turbine feeds into LP turbine.

At any rate, unless you have some extenuating circumstance where you need 60+ psi or need to operate your 16V redblock in Nepal and make 500hp up a mountain, there's no good reason to pursue this, as others have explained. There are so many options for modern turbos on the market, a plethora of options for making big power with good response on a 2.3L 16v engine.

Also, there's no reason to consider a remote mount turbo at all unless you have literally no space for your turbo in the engine bay, or it's to get around some emissions loophole by placing the turbo after the cat.
Duder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2020, 01:55 PM   #19
mikep
The MP
 
mikep's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: 38° 27' N 75° 29' W
Default

What duder said. If you are tractor-pulling, go for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swedbrick View Post
Could be interesting, but know what your in for, my parrallel twin turbo project is still ongoing, but in comparison to how good modern turbo power bands are, it only makes sense if you are looking for a challenge

As a bit of a motivator, found this on a swedish forum;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMc View Post
Any guesses on the HP?

I'm feeling optimistic, I'll say 200.
2hp above stock. But the upside is you never work on it, because you can't.
__________________
mikep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2020, 02:00 PM   #20
Harlard
Hurlurd?Harland?Bueller?
 
Harlard's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: PDX
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duder View Post
The most common reason that a series turbo system would be necessary is the need for extremely high boost pressure. Maybe you have a small engine with big power goals and the only way to get there is 60+ psi of boost. Or maybe you have a diesel that needs to make thousands of hp for tractor pulling. Or you need to maintain big power up to very high altitude with a small engine - meaning high pressure *ratio* capability even if the manifold boost pressure is more sane (like a 4-cylinder turbo car running Pikes Peak for example).

Either way, it's about building a system that gives you the ability to operate way "off the map" of any single-stage compressor. Two stages with one feeding the other is a series system - not sequential - the term sequential in this context means there is some time-dependent control, can be either series or parallel. You can have series-sequential, parallel-sequential, simple parallel or simple series. With two turbos in series they are not "twins" because one is necessarily much larger than the other. The large turbo is the low-pressure stage and the small one is the high-pressure stage. LP compressor feeds into HP compressor, and HP turbine feeds into LP turbine.

At any rate, unless you have some extenuating circumstance where you need 60+ psi or need to operate your 16V redblock in Nepal and make 500hp up a mountain, there's no good reason to pursue this, as others have explained. There are so many options for modern turbos on the market, a plethora of options for making big power with good response on a 2.3L 16v engine.

Also, there's no reason to consider a remote mount turbo at all unless you have literally no space for your turbo in the engine bay, or it's to get around some emissions loophole by placing the turbo after the cat.
Twin 13Cs. I know you wanna.
Harlard is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2020, 02:07 PM   #21
Duder
Comes with a free Frogurt
 
Duder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlard View Post
Twin 13Cs. I know you wanna.
That actually wouldn't be the worst idea for a ~350hp setup. Twin parallel I mean, actual twins. There are some distinct advantages to twin mono-scroll turbos on an inline 4 or inline 6, vs. a larger single twin-scroll.
Duder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2020, 02:13 PM   #22
Harlard
Hurlurd?Harland?Bueller?
 
Harlard's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: PDX
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duder View Post
That actually wouldn't be the worst idea for a ~350hp setup. Twin parallel I mean, actual twins. There are some distinct advantages to twin mono-scroll turbos on an inline 4 or inline 6, vs. a larger single twin-scroll.
I was actually trying to get a rise out of culberro the other day with "hey, how about twin 14Ts off a LPT whiteblock in my current engine?!". Long story short the conversation went from "don't be stupid" to "actually it would not be such a terrible idea!" with surprising swiftness. Plumbing and packaging would definitely be kind of a pain in the dingus.
Harlard is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2020, 03:15 PM   #23
Awaffa2003
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Northern IL
Default

There's no way that with this setup, I'd be going for 350hp. More. Moar. Big numbers throughout the revs. So I guess then the only question I have is for the big choo choo...now don't let your faces blow up...how much boost can I build a b230 16v to handle? This won't be a drag wagon, it'll be a weekend warrior so no concrete filled block bs either.
Awaffa2003 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2020, 03:23 PM   #24
oldschoolvolvo
Board Member
 
oldschoolvolvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Lancaster, PA
Default

all the boost

but there are better ways to get a fast 16v car vs twin turbocharging it
http://www.speedhunters.com/2012/06/11second_volv/
oldschoolvolvo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2020, 03:26 PM   #25
JohnMc
PV Abuser
 
JohnMc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: St. Louis
Default

What fuel are you going to use?

You don't need a YUUUUGE amount of boost to get a 16V up to 350hp. (Did you mean whp?). I *think* I was around that on my last iteration of the 16V in my wagon - around 20 psi of boost more or less.

I never got that dynoed, but it felt a bunch faster than it did on the previous setup, which did get dynoed at 304-ish whp.

I was using a RSI divided scroll header and a BW EFR 7064. And running on E85, a head ported by Kenny, stock cams, h-beams and forged pistons.
JohnMc is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:52 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.