SPDI plasma ignition

[John2x240]

I got this off the Motorsport Club of Ottawa site. I know one of the owners, Glen Clarke, and he's legit plus a racer, mostly Porches. The system is expensive, but check this out anyway and let us know what you think: http://spdispark.com/

[Captain Bondo]

Sounds cool, but like any other part in the automotive market, "it's better cuz your sparks are 2ms instead of 1ms and now you have 10 sparks instead of 1" doesn't mean much to me. What they don't demonstrate is what that actually does in the rela world.

The "projects" section of the page doesn't contain any.. well... projects. Just an appeal for people to send in projects.

Before/after dyno with cylinder pressure logs would be nice. Or at least some really high output examples using their ignition.

I mean honestly no offense but if its main claim to fame is it helped some dude win targa newfoundland, nobody's gonna care. If they had a 1300hp supra running 7's or something, people would care.

[John2x240]

I think they're just starting up as a commercial venture, and they've posted on the MCO forum for some project cars. If my RX7 was back together I'd have offered it, but they don't have a system for a rotary yet plus which my car is a bridge-port FB and doesn't have an ECU.

[Captain Bondo]

Fair enough.

All I'm saying is if you're going to command almost $2000 for an ignition box and some coils, you better have some pretty heavy hitting results under your belt.

There are lots of people doing insane things with $50 worth of junkyard edis/LS1/mitsu coils and generic ignition drivers.

[745 TurboGreasel]

Looks just like a Q45 module without the aluminum...

[JohnMc]

PLASMA!!!

Yeah, nice enough ignition system, if it was 1/3rd the price maybe.

[Brent F]

Hey!

I have been working with SPDI for about a year now and the product has made major improvements. This system if fully programmable, meaning, you can program or "adapt" the spark to the varying mixture conditions. There are 2 features to the system. First, Spark duration, meaning SPDI will fire 1 spark for up to 60 crank angle degrees. Second, Spark and Plasma power, SPDI can increase or decrease power to best suit the burn. In other words SPDI can stay open for the entire combustion process with varying power levels to best match the needs of the mixture. Prices have dropped since the inception of the product. We have not developed a system for Volvo yet but if there is enough interest it is very possible. I have a friend with a C30 that he has offered up for testing.

I will be happy to answer questions if there are any. Quick note we have developed a system for other 5cyl vehicles with very good success.

[AJS]

How about some cold hard proof it makes any real difference?

[Super Matty P]

Seems like the obvious use for a product like this would be for rotary engines. The ability to possibly do away with a pair of plugs and create longer burns seems like a no-brainer.

if I didn't want my brand new engine to be a guinea pig I'd offer it up as a loner. I just bought a mallory hi-fire ignition system for it but I'd much rather have something that would fire a pair of plugs better than 2 pairs hotter and faster. The only reason for the trailing plugs is to burn up the residual charge that the leading plugs can't handle. With this type of ignition you'd be able to do away half of your ignition system....and I could still run my badass carb set-up while having the ability to fine tune the ignition as needed.

[Brent F]

Originally Posted by AJS

How about some cold hard proof it makes any real difference?

There are some gains posted on the website, all are from early testing and we have learned more of this systems capabilities since its early launch. It would be difficult to go back and retest the same vehicles as you all know testing would not be done under the same conditions. However any new vehicle developments would show different results. None of the hardware has changed just development of spark profiles. The more understanding/testing we do the better the vehicles react. The best part is we will be posting all the new developed spark profiles on our site for anyone to download and we encourage others to do the same.

Example: Based a test vehicle, my 2001 Audi A4, I was testing longer spark duration and its effect on fuel trims. It seams the longer the spark duration the more fuel the ecu will add, stft and ltft are up (numbers vary but the longer the spark the more the numbers increased, there is a point that it just cant add any more fuel that is dependent on the factory programming) There are a few conclusions that can be made but I think SPDI is burning enough fuel that the ecu thinks it is lean, obviously it is not since we did not touch the fuel tables. Then I set a longer spark from 4500-7200 RPM range, the ecu would add fuel in those ranges and those ranges only. I could then set the spark for fuel economy in the cruise range 2000-3500 rpm. There seams to be a balance of power/fuel economy. Sorry I could go on forever about what we have learned and how far this system has come, it always performed but the more we learn the better it gets.

[badvlvo]

Ok, so where's the NUMBERS?
Longer spark duration may help with power and mileage numbers, but without real world testing and actual NUMBERS from a dyno and observed mileage it's just talk.
All the development in the world can't polish a turd enough to be anything more than a turd.
Prove your product isn't a polished turd.

[DNAsEqUeNcE]

what a well-formulated, articulate, and mature response^^^

Mr. Brent, would you kindly expound further?

sincerely.

[Brent F]

http://spdispark.com/blogs/results

We used an accelerometer far more accurate and repeatable imo(same one that we use in our Rally cars for data it is a Race Technology DR1 http://www.race-technology.com/dl1_8_936.html), most vehicles we tested were awd and there is not a reliable awd dyno in Ottawa. The testing we did shows the results based on early testing. We are now in the process of retesting as we have found a few shops in the Toronto and Montreal area that will be testing the system on a load bearing and engine dyno. IMO i do not like dynos they are unreliable, I have seen 8 dyno runs and all have different results but I understand that dyno results are the industry standard and we are in the process of getting dyno numbers. For those that are interested in numbers only you will have to be patient we are in the process, for those who like to read testimony there are a few on the website.

The main purpose of this is to get everyone talking and doing some research in the effects of this system. We have positive results using the measurement methods we use but if it is all about the dyno results are on the way.

[JohnMc]

Gixxer coils and a coil driver.

Is this multiple sparks? How does a regular coil produce plasma using a regular spark plug? Is it really 'plasma' or is that just a bit of hype?

I can say that I can tell a subtle difference on my car when using one of those 1960's technology MSD boxes that does multiple sparks below 3000 rpm (and ups the voltage over the whole range). Subtle, but it's there. So I don't doubt that there can be some advantage to be had in zapping the hell out of the plugs.

Does plug life suffer with this, BTW?

Generally speaking though, the price/performance (which is not quantified or substantiated) seems to be a bit on the precious side.

[Brent F]

Originally Posted by JohnMc

Gixxer coils and a coil driver.

Is this multiple sparks? How does a regular coil produce plasma using a regular spark plug? Is it really 'plasma' or is that just a bit of hype?

I can say that I can tell a subtle difference on my car when using one of those 1960's technology MSD boxes that does multiple sparks below 3000 rpm (and ups the voltage over the whole range). Subtle, but it's there. So I don't doubt that there can be some advantage to be had in zapping the hell out of the plugs.

Does plug life suffer with this, BTW?

Generally speaking though, the price/performance (which is not quantified or substantiated) seems to be a bit on the precious side.

Multiple sparks no. SPDI will fire one continued spark for up to 60 crank angle degrees or 5.7? ms(not sure the exact number, we always go on crank angle) From my knowledge the reason for multiple sparks is due to the chaotic nature of the ignition and burn you may not get the optimal spark at the right moment with ID or CDI ignition thus not getting the most effective combustion. SPDI will say open much longer therefore increasing the chances of better combustion.

Honest answer plug life can suffer. I was using NGK platinum plugs when i first installed the system. I drive a lot i put almost 60000kms this year and I recently changed the plugs (Denso IR) SPDI needs a sharp pointed electrode gaped at .020-.025

As far as high intense spark goes, we have seen an interesting trend for better response under higher boost and high RPM. By having a longer medium power spark seams to have a better effect on combustion. A stronger spark under certain conditions may not be a good thing.

Here is a vid of our booth at SEMA this year. Adaptronic made a vid on who and why our park is different

http://spdispark.com/blogs/news

[burstcurse]

so if I were building a campfire and lit it with a propane torch would the fire burn differently than if I lit it with a bic lighter?

BTW nobody even knows how a spark plug ignites the fuel in the cylinder. However there are some popular theory as how it could work.
1.. Thermal theory the spark lights the fuel as a match would using its heat.
2.. Ping pong theory the high velocity electrons collide with the fuel molecules as the electons speed across the spark plug gap
3.. Metal fragmetation theory it is actually the tiny highly charged fragmets of metal ripped off the spark plug electrodes by the spark that ignite the fuel simply by coming in contact.

so GTFO with the plasma junk if nobody knows how it works anyway.

brent does the PLASMA! create oxygen in the cylinders? because if it doesn't then how could you audi be adaptivly adding fuel. Audi cars will add fuel if oxygen is detected by the (wait for it) Oxygen sensor in the exhaust. so your theory of a more complete burn is total BS because only an incomplete burn could result in a lean signal to the ecu resulting in an increased fuel trim.

post more responses I could use another hardy laugh.

[AJS]

Less Hype, more proof.


Mind you, it seems like a dead end product for 99% of people even if it worked.
Much better places to spend the cash.


Anyone want to check some other forums to see how it's being peddled on them?
These types of marketing attempts end up being done heaps of places at once. Be interesting to see who is buying in ;)

[Brent F]

Oxygen sensors are essentially chemical membranes. They work by constantly measuring the oxygen content inside the exhaust manifold, if the level is altered lets say burning more fuel, the O2 sensor with think there is too much oxygen therefore the target afr for that load level is not achieved resulting in the ECU dumping more fuel. Is Oxygen generated out plasma? No, the system simply burns more fuel causing the ecu to react, in this case the LTFT increased.

[burstcurse]

so you belive that the better the combustion burn you get from PLASMA! burns more fuel there fore more oxygen gets exhausted and read by the oxygen sensor.

hmm can I offer you a shovel you seem to be diggin a pretty deep hole.

you should try http://www.cumminsforum.com/ they will benifit more from your PLASMA! ignition more than us volvo guys. sales will surge for sure once you solve all of thier Deisel ignition problems.

check out http://bluephoenixignition.com/ they actually have some fast cars. with real PLASMA! they claim that the photons alone can start combution.

[badvlvo]

Originally Posted by Brent F

http://spdispark.com/blogs/results

We used an accelerometer far more accurate and repeatable imo(same one that we use in our Rally cars for data it is a Race Technology DR1 http://www.race-technology.com/dl1_8_936.html), most vehicles we tested were awd and there is not a reliable awd dyno in Ottawa. The testing we did shows the results based on early testing. We are now in the process of retesting as we have found a few shops in the Toronto and Montreal area that will be testing the system on a load bearing and engine dyno. IMO i do not like dynos they are unreliable, I have seen 8 dyno runs and all have different results but I understand that dyno results are the industry standard and we are in the process of getting dyno numbers. For those that are interested in numbers only you will have to be patient we are in the process, for those who like to read testimony there are a few on the website.

The main purpose of this is to get everyone talking and doing some research in the effects of this system. We have positive results using the measurement methods we use but if it is all about the dyno results are on the way.

Ok, then you can go after this without a dyno.
Before and after 0-60 and 1/4 mile times.
MPG logs before and after.
That will show the improvement, if any.
Otherwise it's just snake oil.

I have seen many products in the past claim performance improvements that were never realized by the public.

Originally Posted by DNAsEqUeNcE

what a well-formulated, articulate, and mature response^^^

Mr. Brent, would you kindly expound further?

sincerely.

The search for FACTS clearly escapes those as delusional as you Brett.
My questions are clearly stated with nothing to hide, facts are required otherwise it's just lip service.

[Super Matty P]

again....why is this not being used on rotary engines??

The idea of bringing a product t to market should follow this pattern:

1. identify a need
2. develop a product to fill that void
3. market product to correct customer base.

the r7 guys should be all over this if it actually works.

just FYI, I could actually show you the dyno from my last turbo pinto before and after the Jacobs ICE pack ignition module. I did ti all in one day on the dyno and it was a HUGE gain over stock ignition system and had verifiable results. This should be no different.

[GlenClarke]

Hi
My name is Glen Clarke and I am one of the developers and owners of SPDi Spark.
I usually don't post on forums but you guys are beating up Brent pretty good.
Maybe I can help out by answering your technical questions.

A bit of background.
The plasma technology we are using was invented by my business partner Dr. Alex Plotnikov. Alex's background is nuclear physics and power electronics. He has been developing the plasma technology since the late 80s. I became involved in 2006.
Alex and I began our partnership in 2007 with the goal of commercializing the plasma technology. We both have a passion for Motorsports so our first application for the plasma technology is ignition.

My background is engine testing, aircraft and automotive, civilian and military. I have about 25 years experience with engine R&D, manufacturing and overhaul for companies such as Rolls Royce, Pratt&Whitney, GM, Ford, Holden etc. I have designed, built, installed and operated dynos from 5hp to 65MW. I have a pretty solid background in combustion. That being said, there is still lots that I don't yet know about combustion and testing. But we learn more everyday.

Briefly: SPDi is what we call non equilibrium plasma. We create a channel or conduit between 2 electrodes then control the energy applied to maintain the plasma condition without creating an arc. Once the plasma is established we can maintain it indefinitely. This allows us to create a spark duration to suit the engine condition.
SPDi is a continuous plasma and not a collection of individual sparks like CDi.

Will plasma improve combustion efficiency? Yes when it is tuned for the engine condition. Every engine is different but we normally see gains. And yes we have conducted tests where SPDi has not been as good as an inductive spark. Usually we can tune the spark around this.

Some of you are asking for definitive proof. It is a fair question.
I will cover some items such as the following in future posts.
Part throttle response
Emissions
Fuel Economy
Torque gains

Please ask questions and I will do my best to answer. Just keep it civil.
The questions help us understand your concerns and allow us to give you the information you need.

Glen

[GlenClarke]

We have not tried SPDi on a rotary engine yet but we would be happy to work with someone.
We have mainly been working with VW Audi and Mitsubishi.
Kits for Ford, Porsche and BMW are in progress.

[Super Matty P]

Glen, why havent you guys identified the combustion engines with the WORST combustion properties and gone after THAT market? The only thing keeping the rotary back is it's incomplete and complicated combustion process. The awkward shape of the combustion chamber makes it difficult for standard ignition to provide clean burns which yields poor mpgs and emission results.

If your ignition system can provide mush hotter spark, longer burn duration and help ignite a larger combustion area then you're barking up the wrong market here in the volvo community. You should be sinking all your time and effort into the rotary engine scene. RX7 guys pay through the nose for every little HP. Volvo guys typically dont.

I should know...I'm both.

[Super Matty P]

Glen, why havent you guys identified the combustion engines with the WORST combustion properties and gone after THAT market? The only thing keeping the rotary back is it's incomplete and complicated combustion process. The awkward shape of the combustion chamber makes it difficult for standard ignition to provide clean burns which yields poor mpgs and emission results.

If your ignition system can provide mush hotter spark, longer burn duration and help ignite a larger combustion area then you're barking up the wrong market here in the volvo community. You should be sinking all your time and effort into the rotary engine scene. RX7 guys pay through the nose for every little HP. Volvo guys typically dont.

I should know...I'm both.