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whiteblock rwd trans options

Not reading all the above, but I wrote the rest of this when there were no replies, didn't finish, and forgot to come back finish and send, so here it is anyway:

M90 isn't all that strong, FYI.

T56 is ultra tall in ratios, and IIRC 6th is very "cruiser" not a step up like with say a J160 from a beams 3SGE altezza which is a nice close ratio 6 speed.

Toyota W boxes aren't that strong either, and R154 have variants strength wise with the strong ones hard to find these days.

BMW is not common / cheap where I am (NZ) but if I were in Europe I'd likely use one - not sure about state side.

T5 is also not that common here, and not super crazy strong either.

Being in a JDM dominated market, CD009 is my strong manual target for future projects, but T56 would be an option too as they're around and available thanks to now-dwindling ozzy built cars.
 
My main gripe with the M90 is the shift feel. The getrag 265 and W58 are worlds better.
If you're coming from an M47/46, anything will feel better.
Am I going to swap transmissions because of it? No.
I am looking for an M90 with a taller 5th though...
 
Alex Buchka said:
I've had a late model W58 behind my whiteblock for a number of years now. I like the ratios, how quiet it is, and it shifts ok. Since it fits in the car and works I'm happy with it but I probably wouldn't go through the work of fitting another one.
The availability of 1UZ to W58 adapter plates makes it seem like an attractive bolt in-ish option but the remainder of the integration was death by a thousand cuts. Getting the shifter to line up in a 240 is a pretty involved cut and weld process since no suitable off the shelf relocation kits exist. I definitely engaged in some self flagellation with the clutch and clutch release situation and I wouldn't wish that experience upon anyone.

If I had to do another manual behind a whiteblock I think an AR5 is the most attractive option to me.
Click to expand...

I'm just going to swoop in and buy your complete w58 setup when you go to that DSG setup ;) (seriously let me know)
 
RvolvoR said:
I'm going AR5 (solstice/sky transmission). $450 for a low mileage take out from LKQ. R154/UZ adapter plate from Xcessive and a 960 bellhousing bolts it all together. Pilot bearing for a vanagon. Uses an LS1 style slave out of the box and just needed a 1/2" space for it all to work. The most expensive part is actually the shifter from Drift Motion for it to line up into the 240 shifter hole.

AR5 is essentially a super late model R154 and has been shown to be good for 700-800 ft-lbs.

M90 is a pain in the ass to get to the US along with any of the welded together BMW boxes.
Click to expand...

That all sounds very promising! Thanks for posting.

So the trans can accept the r154 adapter, and the 960 bell housing bolts in because of the aw30 sharing the same architecture as the Supra box? Very cool.

Happen to have a link on the shifter kit? I see a few different options on their site, but they're all cheaper than the adapter plate.
 
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There's a couple of approaches to getting a T56 bolted up that I thought "hmm, that looks promising" and then threw in my engine swap research folder, to likely never personally revisit.

From Sweden, adapter from the whiteblock to a GM (or BMW) bell: https://shop.klracing.se/sv/artikla...r/adapter-plattor/volvo-vit-motor-/index.html
From Australia, adapter from the Aisin/Volvo auto bell to a T56: https://www.rodshop.com.au/bellhous...2uz-3uz-adaptor-plate-tremec-t56-6-speed.html

Would still need to set up a clutch, but that's in the territory of "find an old-school parts guy that can find a pilot bearing by size, use 850R flywheel, have someone like Spec Clutch make a hybrid clutch disc, buy and set up a universal hydraulic clutch according to its directions."
 
adamdrives said:
That all sounds very promising! Thanks for posting.

So the trans can accept the r154 adapter, and the 960 bell housing bolts in because of the aw30 sharing the same architecture as the Supra box? Very cool.

Happen to have a link on the shifter kit? I see a few different options on their site, but they're all cheaper than the adapter plate.
Click to expand...

The AR5 is essentially a mildly updated r154 but with a 26 spline GM style input shaft. The only thing I really had to do was notch out the adapter plate a bit to be able to keep the GM front bearing retainer on the trans so I can utilize and LS1 style slave cylinder.

https://www.driftmotion.com/Driftmotion-Tripod-R154-to-MK3-Supra-Conversion-p/dm3522.htm

thats the shifter
 
vertigosity said:
There's a couple of approaches to getting a T56 bolted up that I thought "hmm, that looks promising" and then threw in my engine swap research folder, to likely never personally revisit.

From Sweden, adapter from the whiteblock to a GM (or BMW) bell: https://shop.klracing.se/sv/artikla...r/adapter-plattor/volvo-vit-motor-/index.html
From Australia, adapter from the Aisin/Volvo auto bell to a T56: https://www.rodshop.com.au/bellhous...2uz-3uz-adaptor-plate-tremec-t56-6-speed.html

Would still need to set up a clutch, but that's in the territory of "find an old-school parts guy that can find a pilot bearing by size, use 850R flywheel, have someone like Spec Clutch make a hybrid clutch disc, buy and set up a universal hydraulic clutch according to its directions."
Click to expand...
That T56 adapter would be largely the same as doing the R154/AR5. If I blow up the AR5, I know what I am going to.
 
Alex Buchka said:
I've had a late model W58 behind my whiteblock for a number of years now. I like the ratios, how quiet it is, and it shifts ok. Since it fits in the car and works I'm happy with it but I probably wouldn't go through the work of fitting another one.
The availability of 1UZ to W58 adapter plates makes it seem like an attractive bolt in-ish option but the remainder of the integration was death by a thousand cuts. Getting the shifter to line up in a 240 is a pretty involved cut and weld process since no suitable off the shelf relocation kits exist. I definitely engaged in some self flagellation with the clutch and clutch release situation and I wouldn't wish that experience upon anyone.

If I had to do another manual behind a whiteblock I think an AR5 is the most attractive option to me.
Click to expand...

W58 is normally denigrated for being too weak.......I spoke to a guy 20 years ago in Alberta putting 700hp thru one in a Supra with no issues. That made up my mind and I installed one behind my Jaguar V12 XJS.
Still shifted beautifully and with no dramas after 18 years when my wife finally made me sell it. ( something about too many cars on the property at once) AFAIK it is still running great. The crucial step was setting up the run out. I think if you try to run one of these with a cheap bell-housing or adapter without verifying runout, no transmission will last very long. I had a machine shop dial in the run out to less than 1 thou. I believe most stock automotive manufacturers shoot for less than 4 thou. I bought a bellhousing and flywheel and disk from Dellow Automotive in Australia. It was clear that the bell housing bolt holes had been drilled using a template and the input shaft runout was more than ten thou. I knew there was a problem when the bronze spigot bush exploded......thats when I took it to the machine shop, had them redrill the locator dowels and had them build a centered holder for a 10mm spigot bearing that was a press fit into the rear of the Jaguar crank.

Just remember, set up and preparation is the key to longevity, no matter what transmission you decide to go for. I think I paid $1500AUD for the kit 20 years ago and the used W58 was $100CAD.
Even back then R154s were hard to come by and had a poor reputation for failing behind a Jaguar V12 with all the low end torque.

Im currently running an M90 behind a mildly boosted B230 and it has lasted 15 years so far with just oil cahnges.
 
Stating the super obvious here, but you could put a Volvo M46 behind a 600hp engine and drive it around and not break it with obvious caveats. A friend of mine with extensive Toyota experience went to test drive a Caldina wagon with a twin turbo 1UZFE setup in it, and a W box - the owner was driving it, and refused to floor it except in 4th - instant death to which ever gear set you were in. Look at the images of the R154 and W58 side by side, it's like a pencil finger nerd next to a body builder.

I have a friend in Atlanta with a ~400hp turbo 2.0 in a Miata with stock Miata trans and because he doesn't dump the clutch and hard shift it all the time, it lasts. I've driven it half way to Tampa bay and back, and it's as quick as you'd expect but always on borrowed time, limped along by a careful driver/owner who doesn't abuse it - those transmissions are not even as strong as the W58.

My ~400hp Mazda B2000 has the same trans as a turbo RX7 which is a decent box, and I've put some abuse through it, and not broken it, however if you talk to RX7 guys making bigger power than me, with stickier rubber than me, they break them, too.

Interesting to learn about the AR5/MA5/AX15/R154 family similarities - I wasn't aware of that, though I had never researched it either. Good to know, cheers. Makes perfect sense for the white block really, given those adaptors and how easy it is to make one yourself anyway. I will keep this in mind if I decide to manualise my 960 wagon in future.

I think the alignment of trans adaptors being critical goes without saying.
 
FreeEMSFred said:
Stating the super obvious here, but you could put a Volvo M46 behind a 600hp engine and drive it around and not break it with obvious caveats. A friend of mine with extensive Toyota experience went to test drive a Caldina wagon with a twin turbo 1UZFE setup in it, and a W box - the owner was driving it, and refused to floor it except in 4th - instant death to which ever gear set you were in. Look at the images of the R154 and W58 side by side, it's like a pencil finger nerd next to a body builder.

I have a friend in Atlanta with a ~400hp turbo 2.0 in a Miata with stock Miata trans and because he doesn't dump the clutch and hard shift it all the time, it lasts. I've driven it half way to Tampa bay and back, and it's as quick as you'd expect but always on borrowed time, limped along by a careful driver/owner who doesn't abuse it - those transmissions are not even as strong as the W58.

My ~400hp Mazda B2000 has the same trans as a turbo RX7 which is a decent box, and I've put some abuse through it, and not broken it, however if you talk to RX7 guys making bigger power than me, with stickier rubber than me, they break them, too.

Interesting to learn about the AR5/MA5/AX15/R154 family similarities - I wasn't aware of that, though I had never researched it either. Good to know, cheers. Makes perfect sense for the white block really, given those adaptors and how easy it is to make one yourself anyway. I will keep this in mind if I decide to manualise my 960 wagon in future.

I think the alignment of trans adaptors being critical goes without saying.
Click to expand...

While i didn't race that V12, I certainly didn't baby it. In fact the ridiculous clutch pedal setup from Dellows Australia was like a giant mousetrap spring and it ran a big Toyota delivery truck clutch disk, so lots of inadvertent burnouts....LOL.....but like I mentioned, everyone running R154s behind Jaguar V12s in any thing more than street driving kept breaking them......so not the panacea either.
Lots of factors I suppose but as I mentioned, that car was my daily driver for almost 20 years and never had a problem with the W58. When you get to my age, you don't need to dump the clutch and hard shift like wile coyote like some 17 year old trying to impress a girl in the passenger seat of his mom?s volvo. Build your car to achieve your goals.
 
"Build your car to achieve your goals." Solid advice.

In my late 20s I had an R32 Skyline with low power, but I used to dump the clutch at 7500 RPM in second gear most days I drove it. The not-very-sticky 205/60R15 tyres would bake and the little Nissan box survived years of that. Sticky rubber and compliant suspension tuned for straight line grip are factors in breaking these things. Stiff suspension and street or circuit tyres aren't all that hard to break loose with a dump and if it breaks loose then all the box has to do is handle the inertia of the driveline loaded up on it briefly.

Funny that you cite Jaguar V12s as breaking gearboxes, pretty sure those couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding :-D
 
HRPufNStuf said:
The crucial step was setting up the run out. I think if you try to run one of these with a cheap bell-housing or adapter without verifying runout, no transmission will last very long. I had a machine shop dial in the run out to less than 1 thou. I believe most stock automotive manufacturers shoot for less than 4 thou. I bought a bellhousing and flywheel and disk from Dellow Automotive in Australia. It was clear that the bell housing bolt holes had been drilled using a template and the input shaft runout was more than ten thou. I knew there was a problem when the bronze spigot bush exploded......thats when I took it to the machine shop, had them redrill the locator dowels and had them build a centered holder for a 10mm spigot bearing that was a press fit into the rear of the Jaguar crank.
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting. When you say verify runout, do you mean for the flywheel, or internal trans parts? This will be the first time I set up a manual transmission

FreeEMSFred said:
I think the alignment of trans adaptors being critical goes without saying.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. Could you elaborate on that? Do adapters usually need some modification to be aligned properly?
 
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FreeEMSFred said:
"Build your car to achieve your goals." Solid advice.
Click to expand...

If I'm totally honest, I want to be able to abuse this car a little. Otherwise whats the point? Maybe not everyday, but I won't pretend that's not something I'm looking forward to. I don't think I would take this car to the track or any other kind of road racing situation with sustained hard driving. But if it can't embarrass the occaisonal Camaro on the highway, it won't be achieving my goal :zeeall:
 
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adamdrives said:
Thanks for posting. When you say verify runout, do you mean for the flywheel, or internal trans parts? This will be the first time I set up a manual transmission
Click to expand...

Pretty sure he is referring to the input shaft relative to the crank pilot bush, since the bellhousing adaptor may/ may not 'true' the input shaft to the crank.
 
^ Exactly. The input shaft and crankshaft must be coplanar on both the X and Y axis, and of course the right distance apart. For some transmissions it's not super critical - they'll just wear out a bit faster and be a bit weaker, but for others they'll tear themselves apart if off by more than Z (where I don't know the exact numbers). I think T56 is a trans that must be aligned precisely, but really any trans should be, hence dowels and/or sleeves around almost every bell housing I've ever seen as bolts alone would allow slight misalignments.
 
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